Accuracy by volume - Why airsoft snipers are ineffective.

In this video I discuss the limitation of Airsoft sniper rifles when compared to the other classes. To be clear, I enjoy playing the sniper role. I just believe players need to be realistic about the limitations of the platform.

Accuracy by volume - Why airsoft snipers are ineffective. sentiment_very_dissatisfied 7

Airsoft Sniper Rifles 3 years ago 2,798 views

In this video I discuss the limitation of Airsoft sniper rifles when compared to the other classes. To be clear, I enjoy playing the sniper role. I just believe players need to be realistic about the limitations of the platform.

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for Accuracy by volume - Why airsoft snipers are ineffective.

SouthmoreConlin
SouthmoreConlin - 3 years ago
I don’t agree that AEGS have the same Accuracy as Snipers because they both have the same hop up systems but the only thing the sniper has is more power. That’s simply untrue. Snipers are much more accurate because they can use heavier bbs than AEGS, this is due to the fact that they have more air volume in in the cylinder than AEGs which allows them to get more power /(joule creep) on heavier bbs. For example if a sniper shoots 2.2 joules on 0.20 bbs, on 0.46 gram bbs it would shoot 2.8-3.0 joules. However, on AEGs, they have smaller a cylinder volume which makes them not get any joule creep and less range which makes them no longer benefit from heavier wieght bbs.

And If you didn’t know, heavier weight bbs fly a lot further than lighter weight bbs and more accurately. For example, on my SSG10, using 0.32 gram bbs I would get around 230 feet of range (which I measured with a 330 feet measuring tape) but when I switched to 0.40 gram bbs, the bbs shot around 270-300 feet. Also, heavier wieght bbs aren’t effected by the wind as much as much which makes them way more accurate than regular AEGs.
sin8ify
sin8ify - 3 years ago
This video made me get a lmg with a tightbore.. thanks Rob
Atrixah
Atrixah - 3 years ago
also depends on site, if its more cqb i use a rifle, my main setup is rifleman, i use an L85 a2, mk23 nice silent pistol, tm vsr 10 sniper, when i play as sniper communication is key, if i see someone at long range even if i know i could hit them i radio to my team the position, sniping is not always about picking people off at range its also great for scouting and relaying that info back to your team.
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ - 3 years ago
While you are right on your points, i think you forgot one quite important thing about snipers in airsoft.
AEGs, GBRs and HPA guns are quite loud and you give your position away pretty much instantly even at 200+ft.
Bolt Action Rifles however tend to be really silent and are pretty much impossible to hear at the effective range of the sniper role.
Esp. in woodland and with camo that atleast somewhat suits your environment (i am not even talking about gillies here, just your normal airsoft attire with a fitting camo pattern),
the enemy players have a really hard time to actually 1. make out that they are even shot at and 2. make out from where they are shot at
Thats esp. powerful if you flank the enemy and a lot of the time the enemy assumes (if they even realize that they are getting shot at) that the fire comes from the direction of the front line, meaning you dont even give up the advantage of the flank as soon as you open fire, like you would do with other systems.
Verage Airsoft
Verage Airsoft - 3 years ago
This is nice to see, love how you use a whiteboard to explain things. It's the second video I watched about snipers and those are some really good points. I made a video about something simular to this and did know that this video was out there. Love it.
Donovan Cash
Donovan Cash - 3 years ago
@Vincenzo Mario no problem =)
Vincenzo Mario
Vincenzo Mario - 3 years ago
@Donovan Cash It did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my ass!
Vincenzo Mario
Vincenzo Mario - 3 years ago
@Donovan Cash thanks for your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process now.
Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Donovan Cash
Donovan Cash - 3 years ago
@Vincenzo Mario Instablaster ;)
Vincenzo Mario
Vincenzo Mario - 3 years ago
I know Im randomly asking but does someone know of a way to get back into an Instagram account??
I somehow forgot my password. I appreciate any tips you can offer me!
matej augustin
matej augustin - 3 years ago
Great video; Gungamers told me about your channel; you've got a new subscriber
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
Thank you!
Bronko Brumby
Bronko Brumby - 3 years ago
Yep you bring it to the point. And it get even worse: I'm from Europe and we play primarily in France. Here the legal max energy for any Airsoft by law is 2 joules. So the gap between Sniper/DMR and for example a Recce rifle (which have the same rules than DMRs when the barrel length is over 16,5 inches, magnified optic and 4.5kg or more, regular carbines and shorter are limited to a max of 1.5 joules) The sniper just gets obsolet. It's not the best rule setting for sure, but the limits by law define those rules. Means i'm more effective with my recce and LPVO than any sniper on the field and also can compete with DMR's easily.
Bronko Brumby
Bronko Brumby - 3 years ago
Where we play the most time, DMR's need to be 7.62X51 caliber, 4.5kg or more, magnified optic and a barrel length of min 16.5 and semi only of course. Recce rifles have the same requirements just in 5.56X45. The joule difference between DMR and Recce is minor. DMR's can get just on 2 joules. Recces max 1.9 joules. So actually the same, even when the caliber don't fits that balance compared to real firearms. Of course back-ups are needed with a max energy of one joules for close quarter engagement. But with such a low spectrum of legal energy, it's hard anyways to find any balance between the calibers and gun types. the difference of 0.2-0.1 joules between recce and DMR is so minor, that it don't makes any real difference on the field. But that are the limitations of the french law. I personally don't care at all, same for my brother, who plays a 308 DMR. But the sniper role just dies with those limitations by the government, and makes it even more drastic than you explain in your video.

Enjoy your feast and have a good start in the new year!
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
I like your DMR rules, especially the barrel length requirement. Here in the US most places are very laxed on DMR requirements.
Rambo Jesus
Rambo Jesus - 3 years ago
You should probably get better at playing the role properly instead pf switching out to it because "reasons."
ds da
ds da - 3 years ago
In the sniper example, you assume that rifleman and sniper always see eachother and start firing at the same time, which is not always the case. Snipers like to stay undetected and attack unseen.
Levi Fontaine
Levi Fontaine - 3 years ago
The like to, not many are very good at it in my experience lol

10. comment for Accuracy by volume - Why airsoft snipers are ineffective.

Wyatt Woodley
Wyatt Woodley - 3 years ago
A snipers greatest strength is not the rifle, but the aspect of stealth.
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
You can also be stealthy with an AEG...
Dan Coburn
Dan Coburn - 3 years ago
I'll start with saying that I respect the viewpoints of OP, but also that I disagree with several of the points. Full bias disclosure, the BASR is my preferred choice to sling plastic, though I regularly rotate between it, support gunner, DMR, and rifleman. To summarize my following argument, OP's points are applicable for most BASR players, but not all; context and individual player habits are important factors. For full disclosure, I use a full EdGI kitted VSR-10 with an Action Army hop up unit, powered most often at 2.3J shooting .40 or heavier BBs, and I re-zero my hop up and scope reticle to 150ft every time I play dependent upon air temp, humidity, and joule limits. My rifle is fully sealed with teflon and proper lubrication, insulated with acoustic foam, and it has a baffled acoustic foam suppressor on it. I've spent more time zeroing the gun as I have teching it. I understand that most airsoft players with BASRs do not devote the time and effort that I have, which is why I will advocate for the exceptions to OP's video. I'll respond chronologically to points made in the video.

1:15 - "They all use the same hop up system to be accurate." This is certainly not true. There are BASR hop up units that can be tuned more specifically than AEG units, including left/right adjustment. Force application and retention on the bucking is also different. That doesn't include accuracy improvements from BB weight and quality, and while it's possible to use high quality heavy BBs in AEG's, I doubt the accuracy by volume tactic still applies then ($$$'s).

1:28 - "Differences in minimum engagement distances (rifleman, DMR, sniper)." I agree with OPs assessment of average MEDs. This is some important context. If there DMR rules are allowed on the field and the joule limits are less than 0.5J and MED is 50' less than for BASR, the DMR is the superior choice. It also matters if the DMR is allowed full-auto or delayed follow up. As more advantages are given to the DMR class, the less advantageous the BASR class becomes. Many fields do not allow DMR roles, which makes the BASR a legitimate role, especially if the joule limit for BASRs is 2.8J or more while the rifleman is set at 1.5J. A quality secondary paired with a DMR rifle virtually eliminates their MED disadvantage while retaining its range advantage against most rifleman. This problem is why most fields did away with the DMR roles in the early aughts, because it created a pay-to-win factor in the game (I remember fully tuned 470fps TM PSG-1's just wrecking everyone and ruining the day for most players 15 years ago).

2:22 - Engaging at maximum range vs effective range. OP's assumptions are sound, but again only for most; context leaves room for many exceptions, particularly when you factor in BB weight, quality, or temp and wind.

2:34 - "Probably better off not taking the shot and giving away your position." There's a tremendous amount of context to consider here outside of the max/effective range question. A well suppressed and air-sealed rifle, like my example, will not give away your position on shot, especially at ranges of 250'. It's not hard to find video of people having no idea where a shot is coming from at longer ranges, and also not finding the shooter.

4:50 - "The main problem with the BASR is that the range that it has the most advantage is where it is least accurate, and it doesn't have the rate of fire to make up for that lack of accuracy." This is only a problem if you continually play with your BASR at or near the maximum range, which is probably how most BASR players try to play. The most effective way to play the BASR (holding the same assumptions on effective and max ranges) is where the rifleman and BASR do not overlap (see my previous point on DMRs for why I'm not addressing the DMR class here), which is the 150 to 250 foot range. This is where player mobility and awareness take over in importance to gun quality of any role. Understanding when you as a BASR player are in that sweet spot takes many, many hours of play (I've been using a variant of a fully teched out VSR-10 for more than 12 years). It's in this sweet spot where you know you'll only need one shot to take the target, especially if they are unaware of your position. If you don't move well, if you don't have proper on-body concealment, or you don't know proper visual angles, you're gonna have a bad time.

5:25 - "[Due to accuracy by volume at 200' for a rifleman] the rifleman is going to be able to put shots on the sniper and the sniper is going to have to disengage." Again, heavily context dependent. I'm generally only taking shots in the sweet spot from good cover, where accuracy by volume applies less. Precision is much more important in that context. And even if this scenario occurs, most of the BASR role is about mobility, so knowing where your secondary and tertiary retreat spots are based on possible advancements by the enemy is absolutely crucial. Keeping targets in your sweet spot is key. If you're playing your BASR to just not move and take long shots, this scenario will occur quite often, which is why most BASR players are ineffective.

5:42 - Engagement at or near the MED. Again, more context is required here. The BASR is extremely, and far more so than any other role, dependent upon their secondary weapon choice. I use a very well tuned Hicapa that has an effective range of 150', and sometimes I'll add a shower grenade launcher, several hand grenades, or a KJW Mac10. I usually split my kills 50:50 with my pistol and rifle, and there are many games I get more with my pistol. I find that ratio increases the less familiar I am with the field. The majority of the time I'm moving pistol drawn ready for shots (unless I'm repositioning in safe territory with multiple forward friendlies) until I reach a good sweet spot position with cover to take my BASR shots. A good secondary significantly reduces the MED disadvantage of a BASR role vs. others, and I would say it's absolutely crucial to playing the BASR role well. If you don't have a good secondary and don't use it well, you won't have confidence in your movement and you'll play poorly due to the majoritarian cases OP makes in the video, or you'll be tied to the hip of your spotter (a perfectly legit way to play the BASR role as well, especially in milsim reconniasance roles).

7:00 - A note on the superiority of the support gunner role. If you're playing a support gunner roles to get kills by just taking advantage of the accuracy by volume principle with the FPS and ROF and capacity advantages, you're buying into the pay-to-win factor I previously mentioned. Plus, then you're not really support gunning, you're just a full-auto DMR. The role of the support gunner is to provide suppressive fire to enable friendly repositioning by pinning down targets. I built my M249 with a high torque motor, 32:1 gear set with a quality barrel and hop up setup so that it shoots less than 10 RPS, so I can just hold the trigger down indefinitely, to enable long periods of suppressive fire without burning things out. Just something to consider.

7:45 - A note on HPA sniper kits. Having owned a couple HPA'd VSR's, I've found that the mediocre ROF increase and pressure modularity to be a poor trade-off with the added weight and hose for mobility purposes. If you just want to pump long range shots downfield and not move well, play DMR or support.

8:42 - A note to new players on playing the BASR. I agree with OP's points. Generally, new players don't understand proper player mobility, engagement patterns (i.e., majority of shooters are right handed and therefore will come from the left to cover their body on corners), or their individual BASR's performance (where their sweet spot is). And they haven't sunk the time, effort, and dollars into making their BASR a precision tool. It is much better to learn the game as an underpowered rifleman to learn the importance of the aforementioned before transitioning to the role(s) you'll eventually want to play.

OP's points on BASRs are true for the majority of BASR players. But with proper mobility, technique, and gun/ammo kit that most are unwilling to obtain, the role can be very effective in play.
Dan Coburn
Dan Coburn - 3 years ago
@Gunfather Milsim success haha
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
This is officially the first comment on the channel that I had to read in two sittings.
Ghost BX96 Sniper
Ghost BX96 Sniper - 3 years ago
Great video and I've always loved your Content Yes playing a sniper role communications is key
Playing a sniper role in airsoft
Being effective is not always shooting another player Just another player thinking now I said thinking that they can be hit at 300 feet or more You know like when somebody say cover me Same thing goes for being a Airsoft sniper Especially if you have a well tuned sniper gun were a player don't know where the shots are coming from Now that's being A game changer
I could be wrong i'm just saying
you tell me
Ghost BX96 Sniper
Ghost BX96 Sniper - 3 years ago
@Gunfather Milsim Yeah you're so right
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
I don't think you are wrong at all. I know I have observed the other team being unwilling to advance after seeing a one of their team mates get hit from a sniper. A single sniper engaging from a well hidden position can definitely have a deterrent effect on the enemy well beyond their actual threat level. Unfortunately this effect is typically short lived once their position or just general direction is determined.
teamCClemon
teamCClemon - 3 years ago
Basically I started to get into sniping because using a aeg was too easy to out gun most players thanks to being in the paintball world for years and I felt like I was beating up on inexperienced players most of the time. Sucks that the average airsoft player is lacking in multiple skills that the average paintball player has.
Sniping like you point out should really only stay with more experienced players who understand the advantages/disadvantages of most platforms.
Too many new players trying to snipe burn out because they don't have the experience or know how. Plus new players using snipers end up with a lack of aggressiveness due to the idea of what they think airsoft sniper rifles can do which can severely hamper a team in competitive games.
knowtheplan
knowtheplan - 3 years ago
I don’t like being a sniper, using a 1-6x scope on a semi auto is much more useable in my opinion
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
I keep my sniper scope on 6x and my DMR on 4x, but honestly lately I think 2x is probably more appropriate.
André
André - 3 years ago
I do not know the J limits in US. Though i would like to know how much of a diffrence there is between the DMR and rifleman class.

Where im from 1.7 J is rifle man and 2.2 J is DMR. And the concensus here is that two upgraded rifles have more or less the same effective range (On a inanimate) object. The only difference is the speed of the same weight bb. (Result of test with Aegs with same cylinder size).

Test with larger cylinder, like the v2.5 gearbox, did have longer effective range.
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
These are the standards in the US at most fields.
Rifleman 1.48 Joule
DMR 1.88 Joule
Sniper 2.81 Joule
John Hodson&family 777
John Hodson&family 777 - 3 years ago
I'm knew going hopfully to the camp R&R event here in forest grove OR frist time on the feild .
John Hodson&family 777
John Hodson&family 777 - 3 years ago
I think all go rifle men I would run a pistole for both classes so you have a back up but hey I'm out faster Shoreditch to secondary in that moment then reload . get safe then reload .
John Greyman1776
John Greyman1776 - 3 years ago
Great video analysis. Love the new intro!!! Straight fire.
Zak Vargas
Zak Vargas - 3 years ago
Never thought about this but it makes perfect sense

20. comment for Accuracy by volume - Why airsoft snipers are ineffective.

Vladimir Abadzhiev
Vladimir Abadzhiev - 3 years ago
The biggest problem with airsoft snipers in my opinion is the time of flight of the BB.
NepaAirsoft
NepaAirsoft - 3 years ago
I like that, Effective and Max Range. I try and tell people that all the time. Arcing a Bb way up to hit 300 hit is not effective. Great Video!
Marcus Hillerström
Marcus Hillerström - 3 years ago
Great video!
WatchFlares
WatchFlares - 3 years ago
Excellent summary. Airsoft snipers are really only effective against riflemen if they are very quiet and using concealment properly, in which case the range is not the main factor and a MK23 is in all honesty a more effective weapon than a rifle. It's almost as if the rifles themselves are only there for the lone satisfaction of making a long shot (which is huge fun of course) ;)
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
I agree. That single long range hit is definitely the high point of the role and it is more satisfying than peppering someone with an AEG.
TACOCATS Airsoft
TACOCATS Airsoft - 3 years ago
Loved the video
Mnl Grnwd
Mnl Grnwd - 3 years ago
idk bout others but i always thought of sniping as larping. Either that or run a stock marui with 0,9 j in close range just to challenge yourself.
Snipers can however get rid of stalemates as the can harass the positions that pin people down. They can also cause stalemates because too many people sniping means noone is pushing. My personal plan is running a DMR (German laws have semi-auto only above 0,5 J anyway) with a tuned TM G-spec (small and lightweight) sniper on my back.

Oh and i dont do facebook, can i get a patch?
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
Just send me an email at gunfathermilsim@gmail.com.
Whiskey's Gaming Lounge
Whiskey's Gaming Lounge - 3 years ago
It's nice to see that after a decade and change, a Guarder Black, with wide H nub and a Madbull 6.03 tight bore shooting 380 with .25s has the same effective range (with .28s) as the modern wizzbang hop up units.

That poor G&G M14 Veteran is still relevant in the modern airsoft field. I remember playing a game at the Plattsmouth field and Vector brought out his LRF and we measured it out. I was minute of man with that gun to 82.6 yards with a slight quartering wind and a slight hold over.

Loved that AEG for how simple and reliable it was... and dirty accurate when everyone else was stuck at about 50 yards of range!
teamCClemon
teamCClemon - 3 years ago
@Whiskey's Gaming Lounge so you actually don't need a rhop setup if your gun shoots great already. What the mods like rhop do is make your setup more efficient to produce the same results. Basically less hop applied for the same out put of spin which means that with certain systems you can use heavier bb's for effectively allowing your to increase your guns effective range.
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
@Whiskey's Gaming Lounge No idea. That gun is long gone.
Whiskey's Gaming Lounge
Whiskey's Gaming Lounge - 3 years ago
@Gunfather Milsim If your LRF disappoints people, you should buy a higher quality one!!!

Joking aside, I agree. Airsofters, in general, tend to overestimate on a lot of things. Quality of guns, quality of parts, their modding skills, range of the guns, accuracy of the guns, ability to loft heavy BB's, etc.

I'm still not buying R-Hops and Flat hops adding range without changing other variables. Truth is, there is only so much rotation a BB moving at a certain speed can have imparted on it and maintain a flat-ish trajectory. If you can overhop your BB, you aren't getting anything by swapping to the new wizzbang units.

But lofting heavier BB's? Yeah absolutely. Does that mean longer range? Potentially. You'd have to test the setup to see. I found that 380 FPS regardless of BB weight (meaning whatever BB you have moving at 380 FPS) was a pretty good mix between practical accuracy, reduced time of flight and range. When the G&G M14 Veteran was stock it was 383 +/-2 FPS with .25's and I ran .25's for a long time. I think I pushed the FPS up to the field max and swapped to .28's and continued to see excellent results. Been too long since I looked at the work I did on that gun to recall from memory unfortunately. Do you remember if I swapped the spring out before I sold it to you?
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
The flat hops and R hops definitely added some range to the guns but it was not nearly as much as most people would have you believe. Airsofters are notorious for overestimating range. One hundred yards is a long way for an airsoft gun. Every time I bring my laser range finder to a game it disappoints people.
Norka Airsoft
Norka Airsoft - 3 years ago
excelent video well said i have so many people who want play snipers and they have no real clue lol
Zak Vargas
Zak Vargas - 3 years ago
Novritsch videos, however it's spelled
Gunfather Milsim
Gunfather Milsim - 3 years ago
@Norka Airsoft Hey Brother long time no see. Souixland Airsoft Complex is still the best CQB field I ever played.
Norka Airsoft
Norka Airsoft - 3 years ago
btw this i loki from siouxland airsoft

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